February 17, 2021
Pipe Support Design Philosophies with Jan Kålhus - Part 1
Luuk Hennen 0:03
And we are live. So welcome everyone to this live stream of EngineeringTrainer TV. My name is Luuk Hennen. I'm one of the founders of EngineeringTrainer.com. And today we will have a conversation with Jan Kalhus, the founder of pipesupportverification.com. And, he has several decades of experience as a pipe support engineer organising support links for all kinds of industrial piping systems. And our conversation today will focus on the interface between pipe support departments on the one hand and pipe stress departments. On the other hand in larger engineering firms, I will discuss requirements, do's and don'ts, workflows.
And will highlight those with various examples. Now, before we start the conversation, let me say that I'm really happy that you've joined us today. And I want to invite all of you to participate proactively in the chat. Also, if you have questions , if you have an opinion about these matters, share them with us. You know, even if you don't have a question, just let us know you're out there.
for this conversation, and nice to have you on board.
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Hey, cash cow from Uzbekistan. Great to have you on board.
Great to have you all on board.
All right. Having said that, let's start with the actual conversation.
Y'all, how are you doing today?
Jan Kalhus 2:22
I'm fine. Thanks, Luuk. All right.
Luuk Hennen 2:26
Well, thanks for taking the time for this conversation today. And we've spoken a few times over the past few weeks and gotten to know each other a little bit. And maybe it's a good starting point. If you take a few let's say seconds minutes to tell us a little bit about yourself. How long have you been in the industry? What companies or projects have you been involved in? And also what led you to found the pipe support? verification.com
Jan Kalhus 2:58
Yeah, I can do that as my pleasure to be able to do this with you we'll look pipes of what verification was launched with today's profiler last autumn and 2020 have a bachelor degree in engineering from 1995 that means 25 years of experience at this mainly as part of support group lead or the passport coordinator, but also if you have a few tasks as a discipline lead for piping, back to pipe support verification, there is why I founded the company and I want to launch this is that we really want to spread the pipe support knowledge and help customers to get the most optimised design pipes for design and also ensure that it's a safe design. And we have seen some examples that are potential for both quality improvement and cost-saving and in that matter, and in this whole topic. Of course, the column the corporation is stressed is quite important.
Luuk Hennen 4:26
Yeah, sure. I mean, I mean, so if I understand correctly, your main background is in the support department and also as the lead, I've been lead and I actually have some background and BB stress for a couple of years. So you know since we will be discussing the interface between the five stress-department and pipe support-department, and we will probably see that surface every now and then that I asked questions from a pipe stress point of view, but I don't think that's the That's an interesting setting. I'll give the screen to you young. Let me do this. Yeah. All right, perfect. So people should be able to see your slides. Now, you know if, during this session, audio or slide sharing or anything, there are any technicalities for the viewers just share it with us in the chat. But you should be able to view the slides of y'all now. And yeah, I'll give the microphone to us so that we can dive right into your story.
Jan Kalhus 5:38
Thank you very much, then I'll thank you very much, then I'll send a short, it's a short presentation, presentation and what we, it's angled towards the thought will explain how we explain, how we define the pipes and other soil and also what the purpose is, what is the pipes dependencies on requirements, fees and requirements Life Support Group need, the pipe support group needs a typical project in typical problem, I'll go through the, through the pipe, the slider, sort of the sciences sort of process throughout the project, probably the most effective way the science is going to be, is going to be together in finding having layout by progress and pipe stress. And if you get the time in the end, and if you get the time on samples, especially relate especially topics related to your pipes, transit pipes, and more pipes interaction,
Luuk Hennen 6:42
interaction, we will stick to something of 30 - 45 minutes, that's what we've scheduled for, for this conversation. Let's see, let's see our time runs along and take it from there.
Jan Kalhus 6:57
Yeah, yeah, then we can start actually, we can start actually just the popsicle we see . We split it into the red standard details, which we use to attach to the pipe and also to guide and stop the pipe as required. That is one part of the pipe support and we define the other part as the pipe support frame which helps us transfer the loads from the pipe into the structure in a proper way. So, the main purpose of a pipe support, we can actually say that there are three topics that need to be fulfilled or the purpose of the report obviously is to carry the weight of the pipe including inline items like valves, etc. It also is that we want to control the movement of the pipe system like stress is doing on the stress critical line we need to do the same thing on the non-critical line. And of course, the third one is to just direct and transfer the loads from the pipe into the structural steel in the proper way. So that is the main purpose but having said that, but that is overall but below these main purposes, there are a lot of other requirements that the parts support group together with the rest of the party needs to be or need to fulfil. We have some examples here. Obviously which of course all the stress engineers recognise is to keep the stresses and deflections in the pipe within the allowable limits and no pocket prevents leakage and also protect nozzles on security I'm sorry like this before pockets. It starts with the routing right of the piping. It starts with the routing of the pipe to have no pockets to get the slopes and everything you need to avoid that but this is really also due to the span that you have the proper span so you don't exceed typically 30 megaPascal and seven millimetres isn't it? At least that's what we we are used to in in the project we have attended or country the
Luuk Hennen 9:37
sagging of the line that could get that could lead to liquid pockets All right, I understand. Thanks.
Jan Kalhus 9:44
Yeah. So that is mainly taken care of with these fan charts. And of course four critical lines. You guys handle or distress handle the handle that there are some of the course requirements for pipe supports as well same as the piping, the pipe support need to be within allowable limits for the strength and standard details or as well for the frame, and we also have some requirements like ensure that you have access for inspection and also that you can have removal of typical in liner equipment without doing temporary pipe supporting or hot work, but that's the point. So, a typical example of that is really the PSVs. The PSV valves are a very typical example of these points because they need to be dismantled once a year. And we see a lot of times that the layout of the actual piping with the PSV, though don't require line guide upstream the PSV, but we really need that to keep the pipe support now the pipe in place when you dismount to the PSV. So, there are other requirements that we need to fulfil to get a good design, which is operation or maintenance friendly and fabrication friendly. So, these are the details, or some examples, at least of the details of the requirements, but we also have dependencies outside our group that affect the design in one way or another. So what is the perfect pipe support design, you see some examples here of dependencies that of course, the position and the position of the pipe support on the pipe is one attachment to the existing structure, is one how you exist, or how you attach to an existing structure. functions in standard detail use can have a great impact, of course, as you know, for the results. And also we want to try wherever possible, also bring other disciplines into our support. If they are, if we place a pipe support. close to a cable tray, we want to extend that frame, to allow for the cable tray to be supported in the same frame to save steel weight,
Luuk Hennen 12:35
like up to so far, like these dependencies and also the requirements. That is I would say the same for critical for stress critical lines versus non-critical lines, right? It's those are general points, right this
Jan Kalhus 12:53
All these are actually general points but it says that the difference is really that for the non-critical lies, the parts of a group need to more or less handle themselves. But four critical lines, of course, a lot of them are handled, the basics are handled with the stress engineers, but all these other dependencies and the requirements are valid for pipe support on the critical lines as well. So on the right-hand side, there is just mentioned some more examples that we have the passive fire protection requirements that they might have on the pipe support, which have an effect on the position where we were the ideal position of the party report is one example areas that if you have an ideal position on the pipe, for a pipe stress point of view, and then it's a short way and you can attach to an outfitting structure. And this operating structure has no PFP or passive fire protection on it. That triggers a passive fire protection on at least partly but more sometimes the whole
Luuk Hennen 14:10
structure understanding if you move what actually is pacifier protection, what does it look like? I don't know actually.
Jan Kalhus 14:19
There are different types in the market. But the most common that we have experienced is something called short tech. It's like a thick you painted on almost, but it's quite thick, maybe 10 1216 millimetres, depending on the fire rating and the fire load it's going to be wisdom. And the function is that when the fire comes it actually expands and protects the structural steel inside. All right. So it's something you put on where these systems need to work. withstand fire loads for a certain number of the pipe and just the structure sometimes on the pipe and the structure, but also sometimes on the structure because the process department usually do some rupture analysis on the piping and sometimes they need to fire insulation on the pipe, but it could also be that there are pipes, maybe thick-walled pipes and everything that that withstand the fire loads without having extra insulation, but still, that ruptured that rupture calculation, the are are are based on that they are properly supported. And that is why you did the pipes or the pacifier protection on the pipe support and the structural frame even though the pipe doesn't require fire insulation, but usually, you also have fire insulation on the pipe as well I
Luuk Hennen 16:14
knew as the fire insulation worked with that once but passive fire protection, I hadn't seen that in my projects, So, thanks
Jan Kalhus 16:28
and then the last vibration noise dampening affects things and of course, we have a lot of feedback from fabrication that we need to need to design the pipe support in the fabrication friendly way that can have a good impact on the fabrication cost to have that in mind as well when you design what material choices or
Luuk Hennen 16:59
What is fabrication friendly like using the lowest amount of steel possible.
Jan Kalhus 17:08
Yeah, you can say that, but also where you put it, where you are attached to structural It could also be Metro trying to combine pipe several pipes on one pipe support it can also the that I mentioned that you facilitate for other disciplines to use your pipe support framework and there are different things that are one topic is also infill steel between your between the stringers in the deck if you put the pipe support in the middle of a plate, you trigger actually a lot of fabrication underneath the deck because in the stiffening there if you can move it three 400 millimetres, you avoid that So, there are several things that you can call fabrication friendly, I had
Luuk Hennen 18:01
some input of like welding and being able to weld it correctly like the shoe itself, I suppose but also on to why you don't typically weld onto structures I would say but the welding of the shoe, yeah.
Jan Kalhus 18:19
Right railing on the shoe if you haven't welded the shoe to the pipe that is. So, it goes with the deep the standard details as well as the framework that I mentioned as an example. So not now. So, and also, it's very related to how you use the functions. There are some functions I can show you later in the slide rest hold down will often with the standard details trigger more complex and have a pipe support rather than if you have a rest line guide Hold on, but I also read that in a later slide. Material choices also relay into this topic because whether you should go for stainless steel or carbon steel material choice for your pipe supports have a big impact. The initial cost of a stainless steel pipe support is of course higher than carbon steel, but throughout the lifetime and the flexibility and the opportunities you open up for other disciplines to attach to the frame without the touch-up and painting could actually justify the choice of material to be stainless steel. So that was some of the dependencies. So actually, what is the perfect pipe support design? There is very often impossible to actually fulfil all The requirements and dependencies in 100%. So, in my mind, the perfect pipe support design is really the optimal compromise between all these parameters that are affecting the pipe support design from within the piping department, but also for the outside with the structural safety process and so forth. So now, that was the short introduction on how the pipe support is the purpose and, and, and the dependencies. Now, we'll just have a few slides where we go through and go through how we see the most effective parts support the sign to be done in like an imaginary project. In the slide, now, you see that from the left-hand side, we split the project in that you have a preliminary design, and then you develop that up to a mature design, and then further development and you start to finalise and fro freeze the design, and then you the issue drawings and everything to fabrication, and then you have the final design. So in this layer on the back to the left-hand side, you see that obviously the layer grip or routing the pipe on some systems, the stress group is actually doing a review flexibility review. No, no calculation yet, but just have a quick review that it's always
Luuk Hennen 21:44
just watching the ISOs and discussing it with the team or do they use software for that? It's before they moderate to the five stress packages, I would say right, it's just like looking at the drawings or not. Yeah.
Jan Kalhus 21:58
They're looking at the 3d model. It is our experience that you route it in the 3d model and then stress has an initial look some flexibility why's that this looks okay. But there is no calculation at this stage because it's very early in the project. And then, of course, the pipe supergroup will do the initial pipe support design between the preliminary design and the mature design, you then split the pipes into non-critical pipes. And here it shows that of course, the pipes of our group are doing the pipe support design and actually develop and update that design through the mature more mature level
Luuk Hennen 22:50
routing this, so, the five support group they do the supporting arrangement of the non-critical lines, but the BB support group just to define, like the scope of the pipe support department, they do the supporting arrangement for the non-critical lines, but they are also designing the steel structures, right?
Jan Kalhus 23:14
Yes, and that is back to one of the first slides that when I split the pipe support in pipe support standard details and the pipe support frame is that both of those are actually the scope of the pipe support group and the pipe support designer. This is how we see it's an effective way of doing the passport design. So, I know that some companies have structural departments that do this framework. But in our world, we think that is the best at the pipes work. Group does the pipe support framework as well in close cooperation with structural because there are heavy pipe supports that obviously we need to be reported to the structure and they will have on very big support, they need to verify the frame design and the attachment is structural steel. But a lot of these pipes are quite small with fewer loads, and then it's beneficial for the pipe supported to do the framework as well as the detail standards. So that is for non-critical lines. Also, something that may be a bit unusual for some is that we think that the best way of doing that stress critical pipes is also that the pipe support group, do the initial design of the pipes. That will be at the sign like sort of a proposal because Obviously, it's the stress group that has the final word, they need to verify do adjustments and extra supports move supports, but we have seen where we have contributed in projects, that is beneficial for the types of groups to also do the initial pipe support design on a stress critical line. I will come back later in the presentation, I will explain a little better.
Luuk Hennen 25:28
So, so just to like, what would that look like from a practical point of view so, so you have the stress group that checked like the initial 3d model, just like a common sense, check looking at it, and then it is decided which lines are critical and which are non-critical. And then even for the critical line, before the eyes are passed to the pipe stress group, you say, you know, first, give them to the pipe support group and have them do a suggested layout of the support arrangement, and then have that as a starting point for the stress group? Is that summarising what you say?
Jan Kalhus 26:10
That's it? Yeah, exactly correct. So then when stress starts calculating the pipe, they will have the proposal from the pipes have a grip for the pipe support points or positions on the pipe. And, of course, stress will need to verify and add the proper functions and move them as required. But a lot of times, the later projects that have functioned very, very well, because let's say a vast majority of the positions are okay for when stressed. But, this stress critical is the initial by supporting a proposal. So stress has the funding
Luuk Hennen 26:54
For it from, like what I experienced with a couple of these projects is, you know, really after having to dive into the 3d model into the general arrangement drawings, to make sure that the locations are not only based on stress but make sense in the overall design. But that's an interesting point. Thanks.
Jan Kalhus 27:18
Yep. So, so, but as I said, I will show you a little bit of the reason behind that philosophy later on. That when you reach the material design, at least in some projects that we have attended or contributed, that we'll start with the preliminary or at the stage of a material design, you will have an issue of preliminary stress ISOs. So, in the project, you usually have two issues of stress ISOs, you have a preliminary one, and you have a final one. And it's quite an important day for us as a part of a support group. It is quite important that these preliminary stresses or the preliminary issues, recitals are at the highest quality as possible. It is preliminary, but then the higher quality on this issue, the fewer consequences downstream the project where it's getting to be really busy between material design and process design. And that also have implications with other disciplines as well. I'll also come back to witness a later slide exactly what I mean or an example of what I mean by having the most or the highest quality on the preliminary stress ISOs after the material design is still developed, the design towards the frozen design together with mainly together with layout group and the stress group. When you reach the frozen design, then everything should be frozen. And then you have the final stress ISO four-issue and between the frozen design and the final design is ideally just to issue drawings. But I think we all know that there are some tweaks and some updates and some work to be done in that phase as well. So that's why I kept this layout group and stress group. So the main issue here is the three layers between the preliminary design and the material design. I mentioned a little bit why pipe support should be doing the pipe support design before stress, look at it also for stress, creating lines In on the screen now we see that it could be an ideal position for pipe stress. But let's say two meters away, it's an ideal position for
Luuk Hennen 30:12
the blue pipe, obviously, and we see a black, like, that would be the structure from. Yeah, that is the structural steel. And then the rat is like the pipe shoes and the attachment between pipe shoe and structural steel.
Jan Kalhus 30:33
Yeah, so what you see here in red is really the pipe support framework. And we haven't don't show really the standard details which would be on the pipe. So it's just to indicate that you get a lot more fabrication and a lot more pipe support framework. So you can save a lot by actually, me moving it to meters, it could not it may not be the ideal position for pastors, but often it's acceptable and then you're back to the compromise that we seek the best compromise another thing that affects this is that pipe support have restrictions on attachment to structural steel what we see now are some mainstream and the red is actually areas on the structural steel that we're not allowed to attach the pipe support to mainly due to fatigue issues. So, you can actually have a pipe close to a very nice big structure girder and you want to put the pipe support on there, but you are not allowed to. So, that is also a reason why then why pipe support could do the pipes report first because then they will avoid these
Luuk Hennen 31:59
areas is there another like codes and standards for this for these distances?
Jan Kalhus 32:08
And all these are I'm not sure if there are as stated in some codes, but at least there is a structural department in a project that usually prepares a document that shows these restricted areas. So, the information is there the UI is usually no-go areas and also or is divided into no-go areas restricted areas where you need special approval and ordinary where you can attach to as normal. And also I mentioned a little bit earlier I think that you could have this blue pipe on top of the blue pipe it stands allowable pipe span which is okay for the pipe is a big pipe so you can support it on on the right-hand side and the left-hand side but due to requirements may be from a pipe wreck, you want to spread the load. So you could additional pipe support him not for the pipe, but for this structure. Also, we mentioned the PSP could also be a case where you want to put more pipe support in than stress really requires. So that is also for this
Luuk Hennen 33:32
instances where from a pipe stress point of view a certain five-span is okay. But from like the frame design, you would want to have more. It can be very tempting for five support or civil structural to just add those supports because they are just rest supports and they won't have negative effects on distress. But they will add to the overall friction in the lines which might affect the BB stress, after all, is you know, that's just I mean have you ever seen people adding those supports but not referring with stress that that is okay because they're just raw support.
Jan Kalhus 34:18
And they should be referred or they should be agreed with the stress, of course. But then if we say let's say in this in this insensitive pipe support are doing the pipe support and they want these three supports to be that will be a proposal to stress and they will verify whether it's okay or not with the friction we have with the possibilities to have standard details with this, which are low friction pads that will help with that. help with that so that you actually it's okay for both parties that Get a low friction pad on the middle one, which will be okay for stress. And at the same time, you spread the weight on the pipe support, sorry the pipe rack. There are other examples as well, just shown here the top one I mentioned to have common support for other disciplines or items, that is something that support will take care of and not is needed, if you isolated see on the pie even
Luuk Hennen 35:40
like what is the dark black section that is concrete?
Jan Kalhus 35:47
No, that is actually this is the aim is to show that if you have the pipe support, now we are on the top left, if you only support the pipes, with the red frame, the cable tray and the loudspeaker and other things needs to have their separate support. So, but if you then extend the pipe support frame a little bit, you can, the other disciplines can use the pipe support frame, and you get much lighter pipe support and less fabrication expense, and less cost. The bottom left is what we mentioned about PFP. It is very tempting to pipe support that requires passive fire protection and you have a very short distance to access platform or something you want to is very easy to attach to that is very tempting, but then that will trigger a lot of passive fire protection on that structure. In that case, it's better to go a little bit further and up to hit the main steel which is already prepared with passive fire protection. On the bottom right is actually that you have obstruction volumes within or close the inline equipment and valves etc. that restrict the position of the pipe support close to close to the
Luuk Hennen 37:17
likes, rest supports near valves, you know to support the heavyweight, etc. And yeah, in my opinion
Jan Kalhus 37:32
It's a very good example because then you want the pipe support position on the pipe to be as close to this heavy valve as possible. But if this has a line guide with a certain amount of load, and it's insulated or a big line, you need to put it on a shoe and you need to weld an aware plate on the pipe before you weld issue wrong. And then that actually moves the requirement further from the valve if you see what I mean, because you need to get a room for those items, the wear plate and the and the shoe which means that you actually need to move the pipe super points a little bit away from the heavy well maybe two 300 millimetre because of leaving the required space for in this case it is built removable. But it could also be insulation boxes on the valve because the insulation box around the valve needs some landing area on the pipe which also contribute to moving the pipe support a little bit more away from the heavy well, then you actually have the ideal position for the pipe stress and piping. So, all these are actually to just explain a little bit the reason behind our philosophy that we really think that the pipe simple design should also take the initial pipe support design on critical lines as well. But not to misunderstand and think that that is all a proposal but we see that that is beneficial in a big project. And then of course we live close together with pipe support and pipe stress. So cooperation between pipe stress and pipe support is are needless to say very importantly to get the best pipe support design and or the best compromise and that first is communication between the stress and pipe support. A good routine for reporting changes throughout the project is extremely important and this commonly is Communication is not only the issue of stress, ISO revision stress ISO, but this should also really be a day to day face to face cooperation discussion between the pipe support and pipe stress and obviously, the layout group. So, this communication is of course very important, I mentioned this about having the highest quality of the first issue of the stress. So, the higher we, of course, see that is preliminary. So, it will not be the final by any means, but to have an effort in the project, to have the quality of this preliminary stress ISOs as high as possible, that will gain a lot of downstream the project, I'll show you in a couple of slides, we'll make a sample of that. Only a few examples here. But avoid gaps is also something that we see here when I say that we request stress to us as little gaps, or I mean gaps like five 510 15 millimetres. If you use those gaps that will trigger more complex on and off and more heavy support, if you could keep it with the standard gaps, usually all the standard details are fabricated; the standard three-millimetre gap on the stress ISO, no gap, but in real life is always three millimetres. This is to avoid jamming and introduce functions in directions you don't want. So, to keep the use of gaps on 510 and 15 millimetres to a minimum that lowers costs basically, because you have more needed pipe supports less fabrication.
Luuk Hennen 42:13
So you state most standards, the standard detail, ie those are fabricated with standard three millimetres gap. So if I would do an inspection on, like a really good system, well-designed system, I would find three millimetres gap in three-millimetre gaps, that would be fine. What is your take on that?
Jan Kalhus 42:35
Oh, yes, that is fine. Or I would actually say from zero to six because you know that everything moves, temperature, and everything. So it should be installed. But let's say you have a line guide on each side of a shoe, though those should be installed with three-millimetre gaps. And of course, things expand on and so forth. So, in an operation phase, when you measure the line or the gaps, it should be those two together.
Luuk Hennen 43:17
I mean, pipe stress point of view, this is always a little bit of discussion, though, do you think what gaps are realistic? What gaps will be used when installed? And do you include those in the model etc?
Jan Kalhus 43:31
Yeah. Yeah. I know that's a very interesting topic really because there's always a discussion whether, from our point of view, you need those three-millimetre gaps because if you model these or if you install them with a 0 millimetre gap, you can easily get jamming and you introduce a line stop function on it. So, bad weather then stress needs two to three-millimetre guides all over that is also may be a big task. So, this is sort of the little mismatch that at least the latest project or the project we have worked on have sort of been acceptable mismatch really that on the stress ISO and nicer you actually have zero. But in real life and design-wise, you could use these small gaps to avoid introducing unwanted effects in the direction you actually want to move.
So I mentioned this earlier. If you see the bottom left, you see that you have one pipe support which is as our As HD, that's the rest hold on function and the next support is a rest line guide, if we receive that on a stress ISO for instance, and it probably is the optimal way for the pipe to be supported, you see that it's the left-hand pipe support is more substantial because we have this standard details that have a three-millimetre gap. So, if you could actually move the whole down function to the next support, then you will get the two pipe supports on the right-hand side of the picture, which is much more neat. So, so to have what you call it, an understanding of the different functions and how they will be fabricated, could be nice to know again, it, in this case, the pipe support engineer should go to the stress engineer and ask politely if it's possible to move the hold down function to the next support. If it is not addressed, then we will the left-hand side of the far left pipe support no problem. But if we can move the Hold on You say fabrication wait am cost. I also mentioned this about the preliminary and the quality of the preliminary ISO one next we see that you recognise the little picture on the left-hand side and the big picture is really the pipe support relations to structural So, this is to just have an example of the of what happens downstream the preliminary stress ISO issue, you see that between the preliminary stress ISO issue and the final stresses ISO issue basically between the material design and frozen design, you see that there is a lot of interaction between type support and structural we need to report loads to structural we have meetings with a structure for heavy pipe supports and these are used for the structural design and they even start issuing some of the structural drawings in this face. And we have also started the approval of pipe support attachment to no-go areas or restricted areas if required. So the less changes on these stress critical pipes and stress ISO in this period has huge benefits downstream for pipe support and structural and another example is towards. we have an interface toward the mechanical department as well. Because sometimes we need to attach pipe support to mechanical packages which will have an interface to the vendor so that will also trigger more and more work. Having said that, it doesn't mean that it should be finalised in the preliminary it's just that have this on the back in the back in our mind so that it's more than you can have a huge benefit further down we
Luuk Hennen 48:51
will have some changes of course but yeah, the point is clear that that's what I would like to stress
Jan Kalhus 48:57
that this still preliminary so we call them more than anything else it's just that if you have an extra effort to maybe issue the three outstanding stress ISOs preliminary rather than just think are this is only preliminary in a way so we just jumped to the final that is more my point we can't expect that it will be the final routing and the final stress so by no means
Luuk Hennen 49:31
we've in the meantime as time flies when you're having fun so to speak.
Jan Kalhus 49:37
German that's good because this so basically is we need to be pals pipe support and pipe stress then not everything is okay but
I liked how you emphasised politely that they should ask politely to stress, that's, of course, important and looking at. But that is quite important as well because I know that I propose this philosophy of having pipe support, do the stress critical lines. The first design is the most effective in our mind. But it's not stressed that they have the final word. So it's really to help stress the intention is to help stress in their way of doing the pipework. So looking at the time young, I mean, we did have some more like practical and real, real,
Luuk Hennen 50:50
real-life cases as a backup, but what I would suggest is to take, let's say 10, more minutes, roughly 10 more minutes to just discuss some questions that were asked in the chat related to the story that you already provided. And we might you know, in the future, take the time to do another session, maybe if you can find a time for it to discuss more of their real-life examples with photos that I'm sure we can think of, to run through some of the questions. Thanks, first of all, for all of you for asking these questions. I think this is an interesting one from the unit on Adana. Do you consider a safety margin from piping? Stress provided loads or support design? If so, what's that extra margin added? What's your take on that?
Jan Kalhus 51:48
That depends a little bit on the project, but usually, we add the load factor material factor for our design of pipe support. So when we receive the loads, from the stress ISO, we put that in and we calculate the frame with the stop, for instance, we add the load factor and the material factor in the structural code, which we followed for the pipe support framework. So yeah, so you know, it's I guess, but that's like a safety margin for all the stress in the structure, right? It's not that you take that extra margin on the loads themselves. No, not we use the loads, but some projects are also having this philosophy to add maybe 5% to cover for other things being attached to the pipe support frame, like field craze and you know, during fabrication, but originally are basically we are using the pipe stress the loads from the stress, ISO and add the structural safety margins in the code.
Luuk Hennen 53:12
Alright, thanks. Another question about the gaps. Of course, I mean, these gaps keep popping up. Sushant Dalvi asks, How more or less does the guide gap affect the fabrication costs or cost in general? to rephrase that a little bit, at least how I interpret this question is, do the gaps have anything to do with the costs and the number of structures of support
Jan Kalhus 53:51
not necessarily the number of supports, but how the support has is designed, you can have an effect. Let's say one example is if you have a wrist rest line guide the hold down then we usually use sort of clamps that you weld on to hold down and sideways. If you have a risk line guide hold down with let's say 10 millimetre line guide gap then these line guides are not fabricated because as I said they are fabricated for a standard three-millimetre gap. So if you move those out 10 millimetres to get the required 10 millimetre gap on the stress ISO. You don't have room for the hole down and that could trigger actually that could actually trigger that we need to put the hold down function on top to build the frame on top with
Luuk Hennen 55:01
Now I want to thank everyone for joining and participating in the chat also. And I hope you found this useful, young. Thank you for making the time and having this interesting conversation and it's interesting to talk and I will reach out to you, for maybe looking into the future, maybe we can do another one. I mean, it's obvious that you have much more experience and knowledge to tell. Alright, awesome. Thank you very much. And thanks to all of you. Thanks too, Jan, and have a great day.
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